[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to the Four Wards podcast.
Hey, what's up? It's Eric Brah, voice of Draven, Jerks, and Velcaz. And you're listening to the Forwards podcast, here to help you move forward and lead.
[00:00:34] Speaker B: Hello, and welcome to episode 433 of the four Wards podcast. I'm your host. I'm back. I'm Jack Soman, and I've got with me three other wards to help you move forward in League of Legends. Crushy is here, of course.
[00:00:48] Speaker C: Hello. I had nothing witty today. I'm here.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: All right. And we've also got free shooter.
[00:00:56] Speaker D: Hello. I also have nothing witty. And I am also here.
[00:01:01] Speaker B: And last but certainly not least, witchit backmass. Please tell me you have something witty for the listeners.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: Of course not. I'm warring, wonder and all perfect.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: Guys, we are the four wards podcast. We're here to help you move forward in League of Legends. We stream on Twitch. I can be found at Twitch TV. Jackson crush can be found at Twitch TV. Crushyou free shooter can be found at Twitch TV. Freeeshooter. That's right. There are three e's in free and which can be found at one. Which one?
Guys, we got one new question this week. Thank you to the listener who sent us a question in the past week. We need more questions.
Email
[email protected] so we can answer your questions on the show.
Alright. With that, before we get into our main topic tonight, we do have a little bit of a more somber note. Unfortunately, we have to say farewell to slushy otter. She has announced her departure from the podcast. We all wish her well in her future endeavors.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:02:07] Speaker B: Alright, our actual topic tonight, patch 1411, came out this past week and were gonna talk about it now. This is the follow on to the big patch. Usually these are smaller patches. For some reason, this one isn't that small.
There's a lot here.
So who wants to kick us off?
[00:02:27] Speaker D: I'll go first because I have a bit of a. Oh, I'll just start with. I have a bit of a system change.
So turrets got two minor changes.
One is mostly centered around pro play, which is that. So mid and top lane turret for the first five minutes of the game have damage reduction on them. This is to discourage lane swaps. If anyone watched the midseason invitational, lane swaps were back. So to help further discourage lane swaps, because they're not that fun to watch, damage reduction for the first five minutes on mid and top lane turret went from 50% to 75%. So if you are someone who tries to get a lot of pressure early to push down for early turret plates. It's going to be a little less effective doing that in mid and top lane.
And the other change to turrets is first turret gold went from 150 to 300.
So small change but a little bit bigger reward for actually getting down first turret.
[00:03:33] Speaker A: Nice.
[00:03:34] Speaker C: The interesting thing to me about the turret gold chains that apparently that the text won't always show 300 everywhere. It says they can't. They haven't fully localized it, which means some of the translations won't be accurate. But it is going to give 300 gold. So if you see 150, it is actually 300. It lies.
[00:03:55] Speaker B: Yeah, that's just weird.
[00:03:58] Speaker C: Yeah, it's weird. I don't know what's up with that, but it's fine. It's a good change. It's a good change.
[00:04:04] Speaker B: I just would think numbers would be something that would just have built into their, like, API and they change the number and it just goes with whatever language you're in.
[00:04:13] Speaker C: You'd think that you'd be wrong. Number formatting is one of those things that sounds easy, but isn't.
It's very hard.
[00:04:22] Speaker D: I wonder if it's one of those of like, the tooltip of like, the passive on the actual turret is what's wrong. And like, the number that pops up over your head is right. But who knows?
[00:04:32] Speaker B: That would make a lot more sense.
[00:04:35] Speaker C: That's most likely the issue.
[00:04:36] Speaker B: Yes, that makes a lot more sense. I thought it was saying that the number popping over your head was wrong. And I'm like, that shouldn't be the case.
Yeah, there shouldn't be localizing. They have to do every time they change the numbers for when gold is granted to you. But tooltip makes sense.
[00:04:53] Speaker C: Yep.
Okay, so I had only a couple tiny changes.
Let's do the tiniest one first. So they're changing Nami a little bit.
Nami is getting three attack damage from 51 to 54. And her ebb and foe mana cost is going down at higher levels. It was scaling from 70 to 110 and now will be 70 to 90.
And her ultimate slow, instead of scaling from 50% to 70% is just always gonna slow 70%. The slow is what happens after you get knocked up by it. It gives you a slow for a little bit.
[00:05:34] Speaker B: Okay, I want to take issue with something they said in their description of this change. Like, these are straight buffs for Nami. That's indisputable. But the reason they've buffed her is because they believe she should sit at one of the highest win rates in the game because she is, quote, one of the easiest champions to play in the game.
[00:05:53] Speaker C: Mm hmm.
[00:05:54] Speaker B: I would not peg Nami as even close to the easiest enchanter, let alone easiest champion to play in the game. This champion has multiple skill shots. A point and click. That is weird because of the way the w bounces.
[00:06:08] Speaker A: I think.
I think she's easy to pick up, but definitely hard to master. For example, there's a lot of nuanced things that people don't even know. The cue where if you hit an ally with it, it also speeds them up and stuff like that. There's a lot of people don't even realize that's what I mean.
[00:06:26] Speaker B: She has a lot of different ways to express her skill. She's not just a passive heal bot like some other champions.
[00:06:34] Speaker C: She has two skill shots. One of them barely qualifies as a skill shot because of how freaking huge it is.
[00:06:41] Speaker B: I understand that.
[00:06:42] Speaker C: The bubble is hard to hit. The bubble is hard to hit.
[00:06:44] Speaker B: The bubble is hard to hit. The bubble alone should put her a tier above, like Soraka, for example.
[00:06:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Her bubble is definitely indefinitely harder to hit than, like, silence. That's instant, right? Like 100%.
[00:06:59] Speaker B: Anyway, my point is I take issue with calling her one of the easiest champions to play in the game.
[00:07:05] Speaker C: She's pretty easy.
[00:07:06] Speaker B: If they had just said, nami is currently too weak, so we're buffing her. Yeah, that's what they did here.
[00:07:11] Speaker C: Okay, let me put it this way. Nami is easier to play than Lulu.
[00:07:15] Speaker B: Yeah. That I agree with.
[00:07:18] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:07:19] Speaker B: I'm not saying Nami's hard.
[00:07:20] Speaker C: No.
[00:07:21] Speaker B: I would put Nami as, like, the easy end of medium.
[00:07:25] Speaker C: Sure. A two on the scale. On the five scale.
[00:07:28] Speaker B: Yes. She's like a two out of five difficulty, man.
[00:07:31] Speaker D: I just had an idea for a future topic. What are the easiest champs in every role next week?
[00:07:38] Speaker B: Listeners.
[00:07:39] Speaker A: We can do that.
I like that.
[00:07:43] Speaker B: All right. Which you go. I'm gonna note that down for next week.
[00:07:47] Speaker A: Okay.
So I'll take a bigger one since we're talking about it. They made some changes to Pantheon, which I do like. The one that's kind of not trolley, but for other game modes is that they put an AP ratio on Q. It doesn't really change that much in the grand scheme of things, for that.
[00:08:08] Speaker B: Is a buff when he has baron.
[00:08:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. It does increase it a little bit. But that's not the major thing that they did. The thing that they did primarily is put some, I believe it was HP on his w where it does percentage max health damage instead, which is a huge actually buff in addition to adding some modifiers to jungle camps and stuff like that for the added flex, which is pretty nice. So it's min damage to monsters 50 and then max 200 and then in addition to that they your e grants five to 30 armor and magic resist for 4 seconds after the spell finishes. So after you block the damage, it gives you just innate extra tankiness and stuff. This is to assist with him top lane, but also I think the flex for jungle is actually a lot more alive now too.
This is just a generally big buff for pantheon, so I'm happy to see it.
[00:09:17] Speaker D: Fair enough to be this reads as God we want someone else to build overlords blood mail quick. Give more people max hp ratios.
[00:09:25] Speaker A: Yeah dude.
[00:09:26] Speaker B: Overlords bloodmail is legit op on the champions. It's actually good on it is really good.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: Also sleeper for what's it called?
Death dance is slept on quite a bit right now. I actually think it's particularly great.
[00:09:39] Speaker B: So all right, imma go over another big change I think, which is smulder got some juice.
Smulder was a big loser in 1410 with essence Reaver no longer being a spellblade item.
It was a big hit to him. It made his builds more awkward.
So they've changed a lot of stuff. They buffed his ad by three from the micro patch in 1410. He's actually up five from when 1410 1st went live.
But more importantly, they've reduced the mana cost on his Q to be 25 at all ranks instead of scaling from 23 to 35, and made both his q and the dragon practice stack critical strike ratios go up a lot.
I think smulder straight up builds crit now.
[00:10:34] Speaker C: Yeah, probably actual crit.
[00:10:37] Speaker B: And not just will. He grabs a couple crit items because they're good itemization for him.
[00:10:43] Speaker A: I would like to see more smolder. Yeah. His play like completely fell off the planet. I know that it kind of leads to, I would say djen gameplay late, I guess because it just innately the champion has jinxesque vibes to get pentakills and stuff. But I like to see the champ again, so I like the buffs.
[00:11:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
Hopefully Smulder is at least viable with this because he still feels like he's kind of bound to essence Reaver. It just kind of sucks on him.
[00:11:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:18] Speaker B: Wants to go next?
[00:11:19] Speaker C: I'll do it.
The other one I want to talk about is static shiv because they were like, yeah, static shiv is kind of poor right now.
It's not an on hit item. It's not a crit item. So who builds this? They've buffed it a bunch by dropping the gold cost by 100, giving it move speed, and then upping both the attack damage and attack speed by five.
[00:11:48] Speaker B: And then also the proc.
[00:11:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:50] Speaker C: And then buffing the proc from 90 to 120. It's like they buff everything on this that you can buff. Like, all of its stats are better and it costs less.
I still don't know who builds it, but, like, it's very gold efficient now. I'm pretty sure.
[00:12:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm in the same boat of. I have no idea who builds this fucking item.
[00:12:11] Speaker A: I could see, like, top veins, like, building it if they want to split push and stuff like that. Like, not as a first item by any means, but I could see it that kind of being a niche thing.
[00:12:22] Speaker C: But it just comes down to, like, Vayne might be able to build it, but it's gonna be after blade of the Rune king and rage blade, so.
[00:12:31] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:12:33] Speaker C: And then you gotta be like, well, terminus.
[00:12:36] Speaker A: It's an awkward spot. An awkward item right now, for sure.
[00:12:39] Speaker C: Yeah. It's weird because static shave is best when you. When it's a good rush item because it allowing you to farm faster is kind of the thing that makes it good.
So.
Yeah. Don't know who builds it, but if anybody figures out that they should be building this, it's gonna be good.
[00:12:59] Speaker D: Is it the only item that gives attack speed and ad but not an on hit item or a non hit passive, I should say.
[00:13:09] Speaker C: It might be a trinity force.
[00:13:14] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:13:15] Speaker B: I mean, technically, I would argue that spellblade isn't on hit.
This is an on kill proc.
[00:13:22] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:13:26] Speaker C: I'll take a look and see if I can find one, but that's what I came up with. I don't know who builds this still, but anybody figures it out, it feels.
[00:13:36] Speaker B: Like it's trying to fill a niche that isn't there of, like, a split pushing fighter item.
But they'd rather build hydras. Like, pick your hydra. They're all better for the that class.
[00:13:50] Speaker C: So there are two items that give attack speed and attack damage that are not on hit items, and both of them don't really fit in the same category.
Stridebreaker and experimental hex plate.
[00:14:05] Speaker B: Okay. I would argue Stridebreaker is in that boat because it has the cleave proc on every auto.
So hex plate, I think, is the other one that counts.
[00:14:17] Speaker C: I have never seen anyone on hit building a strikebreaker, but sure.
[00:14:22] Speaker B: I just mean that it is an on hit item, not that it is built by on hit marksman.
[00:14:30] Speaker A: Jax is condoning building it on marksman. Now, you heard it here first.
[00:14:37] Speaker D: Okay, but hear me out. Lane nocturne with static shift.
[00:14:42] Speaker A: That would be mid lane nocturne. Restach shiv. We're cooking, guys.
[00:14:47] Speaker B: Is this what we're doing after the podcast free shooter?
[00:14:51] Speaker D: I thought you wanted to climb.
[00:14:54] Speaker C: I played with nocturne only when there's a fiddle. Six jungle. That's different.
[00:15:01] Speaker B: True.
[00:15:02] Speaker A: Yeah, op.
[00:15:04] Speaker B: Alright, speaking of, I want to climb, I'm going to talk about Mordekaiser real quick.
So Mordekaiser has been dumpstering top lane.
In the description, they say they're toning down his q and his e, but there's no changes to his e. So I think that just didn't make it to live for some reason.
But they did nerf his Q pretty hard.
His Q has always been weird in that it has a base damage ratio. That part of it is based on his level, not just ranks on the skill.
The level ratio has gone way down, and they did buff the base damage on the ranks a little bit to compensate, but not enough.
So significant loss of damage on his q, his passive, the aura when he procs the aura and then it just deals damage around him is also down. It loses ten damage at max level. Basically the scaling is identical in both of these cases with AP or with Max Hp. In the case of his passive, however, and this is the reason that I think this change is interesting, they buffed the monster damage cap on Mordekaiser's passive pretty meaningfully.
I was already playing Mordekaiser jungle last patch.
[00:16:27] Speaker A: Me too.
[00:16:28] Speaker B: His clear speed is actually dumb.
[00:16:33] Speaker A: Whenever I'm in solo queue right now, if there's ever a kindred lock, I'm like, all right, just instalock more because there's nothing that kindred can do anymore.
[00:16:44] Speaker B: Whoever Kindred is trying to save, whether it's her or someone else, you just ult that person and that person is no longer saved.
[00:16:50] Speaker A: Yes. Or just like ult her before she can and then she has to ult in the realm, which is a really awkward scenario because then she just dies when she comes out. Yeah, I had one in my recent game where she built QSS as if she didn't read that. I was crying. I was like, there's no way you built QSS.
[00:17:07] Speaker B: There's no way to be fair if you're against heavy AP mercurial scimitar is still the lifesteal item you should be building, even if you don't have a good use for the QSS.
[00:17:22] Speaker A: I can see an argument, but, yeah, she definitely built it for me. And it was just so funny. I was cracking up.
[00:17:27] Speaker B: That shit's hilarious. All right, so, yeah, Mordekaiser got nerfed, but jungle clear speed should be up a little bit, despite the nerf.
Who wants to go next?
[00:17:41] Speaker A: Oh, God.
[00:17:43] Speaker D: I'll talk about Caitlyn.
So Caitlyn got some decent changes. This patch mostly targeted towards the first strike Caitlyn builds, which are the, like, basically building no attack speed, do a bunch of damage.
You know, it's not lethality currently, but in the past, this has been the lethality Caitlin builds.
[00:18:10] Speaker B: Yeah, these are like collector into infinity, edge into yudental type builds, I'm guessing.
[00:18:17] Speaker D: Yeah. Yep.
[00:18:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:19] Speaker D: Which I still think collector is good as a first item, but it's not as good. So her base attack speed growth went up, which, you know, is good on an ad carry. And Caitlyn's always had some of the lower attack speed growth and scaling of all ad carries, despite having a seven hit passive.
[00:18:45] Speaker B: It's only like three when you're in a bush, isn't it?
[00:18:48] Speaker C: A six hit passive now, remember they changed it?
[00:18:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:52] Speaker D: Is it? Oh, I forgot the change.
[00:18:55] Speaker B: It used to be eight to six. Now it's just six.
[00:19:01] Speaker D: But the other changes. So for those that don't know. So when you step into Caitlyn trap, she gets the extended range and an automatic headshot. The same is true when she hits you with the 90 caliber net. The difference is when you step in the trap, she gets bonus damage on that headshot.
Like above headshots already. Bonus damage. This bonus damage was decreased. They cut it used to be an 80% bonus ad at max rank, it's now 40% bonus ad.
[00:19:36] Speaker B: So here's my question. Previously, I believe this was her second max. Is this enough to shift it to last Max?
[00:19:45] Speaker D: No.
With the reason being you still want to have more traps up. And the amount of traps you can have out in store goes up with rank. So that way you can still play the zoning game around objectives.
I think that's still valuable enough to second max this ability, but you're not going to chunk people nearly as hard as you were.
And also her, our ace in the hole, which if you have first strike, you're. You're basically using this on cooldown to get gold off of it.
Lost 20% of the bonus ad ratio so went from 170% to 150%.
So this combined with the changes to how first strike works, I believe last patch, where just, like, it's the one up front shot, kind of gives less gold.
[00:20:44] Speaker B: They made it so it's less dependent on how much damage you do and more dependent on getting the proc. The base value went up and the scaling went down.
[00:20:51] Speaker D: Right. Okay.
[00:20:53] Speaker B: So big single hits like this lose out because the ratio went down by enough to offset it, whereas, like, whenever she procs it with q, she's coming out equal to her ahead from before.
[00:21:05] Speaker D: Yep.
So if you weren't building, if you weren't taking first strike on Caitlyn and, like, 100% playing around that, like, triple big ad items, like, I mean, I still go fleet footwork on her, you're not gonna feel too much of a difference with the attacks. Like, the attack speed growth is enough of an offset to the headshot damage going down on the traps. That, like, I think it is pretty much power neutral for that playstyle.
[00:21:38] Speaker B: Yeah. I think for the DP's builds, where you're actually building attack speed items, she's probably gonna do about the same DP's as before.
[00:21:47] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:21:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
Okay, so, lastly, I would like to talk about everyone's favorite AP jungle item right now on their first back. And that's fated ashes. So they made this a slight change. Where the AP you get is was 40, now it's 30. And the burn damage is was 21, now 15. I think the item is still really, really great. And I wanted to preface that just because I think on your first back, always the biggest struggle for AP champs in particular were the part items in the jungle. And having this as the. Your first back item after your first full clear is still, like, really, really good. I don't think it made it so, like, they're unplayable by any means. I think it just. They made it more fair, I guess, in that sense, there's a lot of champs, like brand, Mordekaiser, even. And there was another one, Lilia. All those were kind of abusing the item. So I think this kind of just knocks it down, like, a little bit, but is still really, really good.
[00:22:57] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:22:57] Speaker B: Importantly for the AP junglers, the bonus damage to monsters was completely untouched.
[00:23:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
So, still really good for clear. And, yeah, the overall damage and stuff like that, that you'll deal from your ganks is a little bit neutered, but not enough to justify not building it or dropping champs or anything like that. Still really good.
[00:23:19] Speaker B: I mean, on Mordekaiser. I'm literally buying this and then sitting on it while I go build a Rylaise.
[00:23:24] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. No, like this. This part item is just kind of what you like. Every AP jungle rushes, like, currently just on their first back, just because it's so efficient for you and it's really, really good for your clear.
[00:23:39] Speaker B: All right. That's all the stuff we put in our dock. I realized. One other change I want to highlight before we move on to our trinket tip and listener questions, because last patch episode we complained about how shit shield bow is, so they buffed its shield at level 18 by 190. This patch shield bow is still not good, but I think it actually, at least now fills the role of I need to build a shield item and also I need critical Samira.
Sure. I still think it's a bad item. I still think it should have life steal on it. It's weird that it doesn't.
[00:24:22] Speaker C: It is actually Samira right now. Yeah. Especially because it is the 320 to level nine, I guess.
[00:24:30] Speaker B: I mean, also usually not building this before level nine anyway, so.
[00:24:33] Speaker C: Right, exactly.
[00:24:35] Speaker A: I also find it weird that it doesn't have like the, like. I understand maybe innately not having the life steel, but like, for example, like maw. Like having the same, like kind of like a Nate passive when it breaks or something like that. I think that would be kind of a fair trade off, no? Yeah, like having, like having the same omnivamper or whatever whenever the shields up for six or seconds or whatever. The shields up, I think it would be and make the item at least a little bit better for people to buy.
[00:25:04] Speaker B: Yep. So I want to put this in context for a typical, like 300 ish ad build, which is where most marksmen wind up if they're actually building an attack speed item or two.
This is slightly more of a shield than building a maw would be. Obviously, maw has a lot of other value, but the shield is meaningful now. It is competitive with maw.
[00:25:30] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:25:34] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:25:34] Speaker C: I think Samira can get away building this third light collector Infinity edge shield bow.
[00:25:38] Speaker B: That's probably fine.
[00:25:39] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:25:42] Speaker B: As a side note, ad carries still shouldn't be building it.
[00:25:45] Speaker D: Agreed. If you're planning on building this item, it's hard because this would be like a pre plan in your runes. But I guess if you ever take last stand, as in the precision tree, probably try and build a shield bow at some point just because of the synergy between those two things of last stand procs when shield bow procs. So you have the shield to do max damage.
[00:26:10] Speaker B: In general, people building any of the lifeline items should be looking at last stand as a rune. Like, if you're a fighter building Sterak's, you should be looking at last stand.
If you're building a maw, you should be looking at last standard.
[00:26:24] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:26:26] Speaker B: Okay, so, free shooter. We've had this trinket tip in here for a couple weeks, but you're the one who said it, so we've been saving it for you. Yeah, this week.
[00:26:38] Speaker D: So I found out if you have a banshee's veil or an edge of night and there's an enemy nocturne, the shield is consumed by them pressing r and you don't get nearsighted.
[00:26:51] Speaker B: Yep.
You are still a valid target for the nocturne to dash two.
[00:26:57] Speaker D: Yes.
Um, this was something I did not realize because with the whole screen, like, going dark, the screen effect is still there. You just can actually see. I didn't realize that and still was acting as though I was playing blind without really realizing it. Cause I'm an ad carry. I was getting ulted by nocturne every fight.
[00:27:17] Speaker B: Is it bad that this kind of makes it? If you're playing Shen in the enemy Pixanok turn, it's almost worth building the banshees component item that gives you the spell shield, probably fine.
[00:27:27] Speaker A: That's interesting.
[00:27:28] Speaker B: As troll as that sounds like it prevents his ult from turning off your ability to play the game.
[00:27:34] Speaker C: There are three more things that block nocturnal taximation like this. Malzahar's passive shield, Morgana's black shield, and Sivir's spell shield.
[00:27:43] Speaker D: Yep.
[00:27:44] Speaker B: Yep. Technically also nocturne spell shield, but you have to be a blind pick for that to be possible.
[00:27:49] Speaker C: No. Silas has to steal your ult.
[00:27:52] Speaker A: When was the last time you were in a blind pick game? I haven't played.
I haven't played.
[00:27:58] Speaker B: But, yeah, crush hit. The actual case that could happen in a ranked game is nocturne stealing your ult or nocturne getting his ULT stolen by Sylas. However, if you're nocturne and Sylas is stealing your ult, just spell shield the steel instead.
[00:28:11] Speaker C: Right? Yeah. Like Sivir Spellshield and Nocturne spellshield happening to block the ultimate is, like, completely lucky happenstance.
[00:28:20] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:28:22] Speaker C: Morgana Black Shield, and Malzahar Shield. Those actually are likely to block the block it just as a course of using the ability. Yeah.
[00:28:32] Speaker D: By the way, I don't know if you guys have played quick play recently. I did when I was, like, helping like a friend of a friend who was new to the game. So I jumped on low level account and was playing with them. Um, there's no lobbies in quickplay anymore.
[00:28:47] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:28:48] Speaker D: You pick a champion in a role and then you just sit in queue until it finds a game.
It's very much better because the only time I would ever play quick play was I want to play the new champion and I'm willing to wait in a ten minute queue instead of insta queues. But everyone dodges, so this is great. I have no idea when this changed.
[00:29:09] Speaker A: Is it long.
[00:29:12] Speaker B: When they changed it to quick play from blind pick?
[00:29:15] Speaker C: Oh, yep.
[00:29:17] Speaker D: Huh.
I haven't tried it for any new champions since I realized this, but the normal, like, the queue times I was getting, granted, this was we were low level, but queuing up was like a four stack at low level. It was like almost instant pop queues. And this was after the vanguard update, so it wasn't against bots.
[00:29:38] Speaker A: Damn.
[00:29:41] Speaker B: Alright, so yeah, nocturnal, there's ways to see.
All right, we got listener questions, guys. As a reminder, send your questions to theforwardspodcastmail.com so we can answer them on the show. We will need questions next week. Listeners, seriously, please write in, tell us what you want us to talk about.
[00:30:02] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:30:03] Speaker B: All right, our first question tonight comes from eerie, who writes I'm heeding the call? Here's a few things I've been wondering about. Number one, what are the champion abilities that are most frequently used subpar by players?
[00:30:17] Speaker C: Rise's ultimate?
[00:30:19] Speaker B: Yep, that's. I think that's a good one. Unequivocally. Number one. Yeah, that thing's misused in pro play regularly.
[00:30:29] Speaker A: The one that immediately.
Yes, that one's easy. That one's easy to mess up. Like cause of the weird cast, Rumble's.
[00:30:39] Speaker B: Ultimate is frequently missed. Yes, it is not frequently used subpar.
I think that is an important distinction. To me, used subpar is like using it at the wrong time or like using it incorrectly, not just aiming issues.
[00:30:57] Speaker C: I would argue that missing counts as using it subpar, and that's fair.
[00:31:02] Speaker A: I think the immediate thing that popped into my mind was Jarvan EQ specifically. I think that a lot of the time people go for ganks and flanks on the champ or whatever, where you don't have to cast Eq. You can wait until they burn their flash, whatever it might be. You can walk up to them and w them, slow them and then Eq. Yeah, you have all these other things that, because if you cast EQ, you lose all kill threat on the person whenever you're doing the gank. So if you go behind them and then do it, I usually both. I realize that it's two abilities, so I'm kind of cheating, but I think that they utilize that combo because it's kind of integral to Jarvan for very subpar often.
[00:31:44] Speaker C: So the same is Xinjiang is a good one.
[00:31:49] Speaker B: I'm saying, Wukong's clone, so often I see people trying to use it purely for the dash or to stealth clone does damage and has a lot of, like, mind game outplay potential that people just don't utilize.
Played a game of Wukong earlier where a tryndamere came from top lane to invade me in my jungle. So I walked to the, like, wall next to the Krugs and hit s, and he immediately spun over the wall, and I then went back to doing what I was doing.
[00:32:26] Speaker A: I love doing that with Wukong. Yup.
[00:32:28] Speaker B: It's so much fun, but, like, most people will just use that and jump over the wall, and then you die because you've used your escape, and he chased you.
[00:32:37] Speaker D: So I have one that's not specific to this champ, but I think it's the most obvious on this champ, which is blitzcrank hook. Um, yep. Particularly in lane, when the cooldown's really long. Um, a lot of times, it's more meaningful to not throw it out and have them walk away from you in fear or, like, if they're not respecting you, you walk up and e them first and then cue them.
[00:33:03] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:33:04] Speaker A: Wait for them to burn their dash or fly or flash, and then cue them back. Yeah. 100%. It's exactly the same principle as jarvan four. So.
[00:33:13] Speaker B: So the other one, I'm gonna say, is most single target pick ultimates. I'm thinking malzahar. I'm thinking lissandra.
Those types of champions.
Very frequently, I see people burn those on the front line. Who has already engaged.
There are times when it is correct to use those on the frontline after the frontline has already engaged is never the correct time.
[00:33:40] Speaker A: Yes. Or specifically with Malzahar. I hate whenever people just ult and they don't have their voidling out, and I'm like, what are you doing?
[00:33:51] Speaker B: Why don't you have your voidling out? They still think it's the version of Malzahar from ten years ago where his ultimate actually dealt damage.
[00:33:57] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:33:58] Speaker A: It's like you use your voidlings. They're on cooldown. Why are you ulting? You're gonna deal negligent. Like you're just nothing.
[00:34:04] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:34:06] Speaker C: Okay, I'll say that. Like, as a general class, shielding abilities.
[00:34:13] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:34:14] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:34:15] Speaker C: Lux W is the one I think of immediately, but comes for karma.
Karma Shield, Janna Shield, Lulu Shield, Morgana's shield.
That whole class of abilities, it gives you shields. A lot of people don't use them correctly. The more commonly on people who can shield others, like people who shield themselves. Usually it's. Usually it's fine. Usually, it's fine.
[00:34:40] Speaker B: Yep.
All right, question two. What are the champion abilities that are most poorly understood by opposing players? I wanna go first. I wanna go first, because this one I hear constantly, Lissandra ultimate is not a damage over time for the zone around the target.
It hits the moment you are in that zone. It hits you once. You do not have to run out of it. If you are standing next to someone who got Lissandra ulted, you've already taken the damage. There is no further damage from the ultimate.
I've seen that so many times where people are like, why didn't you get out of the ultimate? It's like, cause I already took the damage, and I was killing Lissandra.
[00:35:23] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:35:24] Speaker A: I can understand why people would think it, like, the way the animation kind of goes. Like, I get it. Absolutely.
[00:35:32] Speaker B: It's Zyra ultimate's the same way. It deals damage once when you're in the circle, the knock up is not where the damage is dealt.
[00:35:40] Speaker C: Yep.
Fiddlesticks. Passive.
[00:35:50] Speaker A: Yes. I think people don't.
I think people do not understand it often, and I love when people actually use cleanse against fiddle. It's funny, because if people are smart about it, like, I. Like, specifically, like, I don't have to use Q to fear. I can use my ult to fear, and as they cleanse, I can recast, which is great, especially if it's not.
[00:36:15] Speaker B: Actually summoner cleanse, but, like, a QSS or plank. W. Yes.
[00:36:20] Speaker A: So see it often where Samira just, like, cleanses, and then I just cure again, and then she doesn't get to play the game, so. Yeah. People do not understand that when you get out of vision, you innately get the fear. No matter what, you still have your fear ability as well.
[00:36:34] Speaker B: I cry every time I see a fiddlesticks cue someone from a bush.
[00:36:39] Speaker C: Oh, my God.
[00:36:41] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:36:43] Speaker B: That right there should have been in question. One that should have been. One of our answers is used subpar by players.
Yeah.
[00:36:50] Speaker A: Can I use. Can I use fiddlesticks? Effigy. People don't understand that it could block abilities and stuff like that. It's pretty good. Like, Jinxalt. I don't know. How many times were my effigies?
[00:36:59] Speaker C: Oh, my God.
[00:37:01] Speaker A: Jinxalt. And I'm like, okay, okay, let's go.
[00:37:04] Speaker B: While we're at it. Talking about effigies being poorly understood. So Sylas is a weird case. If Sylas ults a Shaco clone, he still gets the Shaco ultimate. If Sylas Ult's a fiddlesticks effigy, he does not get fiddlesticks ult.
[00:37:22] Speaker A: Okay, that makes sense.
[00:37:23] Speaker B: It makes sense, but it's also like. But one champion clone gives it. Why doesn't the other one? I tested this in a game.
[00:37:31] Speaker C: What happens if you ult like Leblanc or Wukong clones?
[00:37:34] Speaker B: You get their ultimate?
[00:37:36] Speaker C: Huh?
[00:37:37] Speaker A: I think it's just because it's kind of a dummy. It's not like something you can innately control.
[00:37:41] Speaker B: Yes. It's because the fiddlesticks clones are special cased on their life. They're treated as ward items, basically, but they're champions. It's kind of the same thing, like how Niko can turn into minions and dodge skillshots that only hit champions.
[00:37:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:56] Speaker C: Oh, my God.
[00:37:57] Speaker D: Um, I have one more for this because I was like, there's something that frustrates me beyond end when my supports don't respect it and I can't remember what it is. And it's barred if there's a bard on the other team. Don't stand on top of your ad carry in general. I don't like people standing directly on top of me. But it seems to happen a lot against Bard in particular because people don't know what his Q does somehow.
[00:38:24] Speaker B: Yep. Alright, we're gonna go on to question three. And I think it's gonna prompt some explanation before we actually do what the question is asking. So question three is so many of the ADC are described as hypercarries, it can be hard to know whom outscales whom. Can you rank the top ones?
And we're going to. But I want to clarify what a hypercarry actually is because hypercarry is not just what is the raw DP's potential of this champion? If it was, Lucian would be a hyper carry. His DP's is fucking psychotic.
It's about their ability to apply that damage or their ability to cut through frontline in some cases. Like Vayne is a hyper carry not because she does incredible amounts of DP's, but because she does max health, true damage, so tanks can't survive her no matter what. If she gets to that point.
[00:39:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:21] Speaker B: So with that qualifier of this is what hyper carry means. Out of the way.
What do we think are the. The hyper carriest of hyper carries?
[00:39:30] Speaker D: Well, so I think the other, like, qualifier too is it's someone who is at their best at full build because there's a lot of champs that can feel like hyper carries, but that's because they're actually just a snowballer and they're ahead of you. Like, yep. A lot of assassins are like this where everything equal everyone in the game. Six items. Assassins are actually kind of relatively weaker. So I want to add that caveat on for listeners as well.
[00:40:01] Speaker B: Okay, so I think Jinx is the current, like, standout hyper carry.
[00:40:06] Speaker C: So I think. Good.
[00:40:08] Speaker A: I'm gonna have, like, a controversial opinion because a lot of people don't actually play the champ. But I think Kogma, like, in a five v five scenario. Like, I understand. I think Kogma melts people, like, so, so hard. And innately his attack range is huge. Like, if. If we're having just a five v five straight fight and we have, like, let's say the typical team comp where it's tank v tank and stuff like that, Kogma innately is going to shred through.
[00:40:33] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:40:34] Speaker A: Faster than most ad carry. Like, I'm just talking about, like, baseline. Jinx is really good because she gets the resets. And I think that's what, like, kind of like, innates. Innates her to do the hyperkale hyper carry stuff that she wants to do. But I think for me, Kogba is like the best, also one of the hardest champions to actually operate in that sense, because he's very volatile.
[00:40:58] Speaker C: If I look at the list of champions that riot claims are marksman. So I tell it to give me the role of the champion and gives me all the marksmen.
These are the ones that stands out as being hyper carries. And I'll talk about ranking them later. Just alphabetical right now. Aphelios.
[00:41:16] Speaker D: Yep.
[00:41:17] Speaker C: Jinx. Kaisa.
[00:41:19] Speaker D: Yep.
[00:41:20] Speaker C: Kale's in this list, but I'm not going to include her because she's not an ad carry. Technically.
[00:41:26] Speaker B: She sometimes does build like one.
[00:41:28] Speaker D: Right.
[00:41:28] Speaker C: Kog'maw senna is debatable. I'll add her. Sivir, smulder, Vane, and Zeri.
Those are the ones that I think are twitch.
We can add twitch. Twitch is fine.
[00:41:47] Speaker B: I think twitch belongs in that list.
[00:41:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I think so too.
[00:41:50] Speaker C: If jinx counts, twitch counts.
Yes. Out of those, I'm pretty sure Vayne or Kog'maw are the hyperist of hypercarries.
[00:42:02] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:42:02] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:42:03] Speaker B: I think Kog'maw is the hyperest of hyper carries and it's not close. Vayne doesn't have an attack speed steroid.
[00:42:09] Speaker C: She has an attack damage steroid.
[00:42:12] Speaker D: Yeah. It's like Kog'maw's s plus Vayne is s. I would say.
[00:42:15] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:42:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I think Kog'ma is just like. Yeah. In a five v power scenario Vayne is indefinitely easier to play. In my personal opinion.
[00:42:26] Speaker B: Kog'maw is such a hyper carry that his typical builds don't actually build five carry items. He builds three carry items and then he builds tank. Cause he does not need more damage.
[00:42:34] Speaker C: Yeah, it's true.
[00:42:36] Speaker B: Like that is how over the top Koglaw's carry potential is.
[00:42:40] Speaker A: Yeah. You just need people to actually operate to play to help you. Because if you don't like, it's hard. That's why. Solo queue. You don't see the champ played that much.
[00:42:51] Speaker B: No. You need a duo and you need to be able to trust your duo.
[00:42:54] Speaker A: Yes. It's like Samira and Alistar or Samira and Nautilus, let's say. Right. Like the reason why they're. They queue up and gain lp is because like they innately do well together. And you'll see the kogma lulus and the Twitch lulus and stuff like that do the same thing. So.
[00:43:15] Speaker B: Okay, so we're saying kog'maw and Vayne are the hyperest of hyper carries. Who would you put below them?
[00:43:22] Speaker A: I think Twitch. I think crush kind of said Twitch and jinx would be the next.
[00:43:27] Speaker D: No, I would put aphelios on that tier.
[00:43:31] Speaker B: For different jinx.
[00:43:33] Speaker C: It's kind of interesting to me because it kind of gets a little muddy because you got like aphelios, Jynx, Twitch.
And I would all put kind of about this. This is also where Zeri usually goes if she's not currently dumpstered. And she's kind of currently dumpstered.
[00:43:50] Speaker B: Yeah, she's a big loser of the atomization changes.
[00:43:53] Speaker C: Yeah, they'll figure it out and she'll get good again. But right now she's not.
But yeah, this. This whole tier is like people who.
People who. So here's the, here's the reason why this is tiered the way it is. Kog'maw and Vayne have damage that scale with health of the target. Everybody else that we mentioned, jynx, Aphelios, Sivir and Twitch have aoe damage. Like they do a lot of damage to a lot of people. At once.
[00:44:26] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:44:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Or reset where like Siviralt or jinx alt where it kind of like just innately, like after the fact that you get a kill, you just kind of snowball it. Right.
[00:44:35] Speaker B: It lets them clean up. Entire team fights really well.
[00:44:38] Speaker C: Right? Like, I think those are. I think that's why these. These are the ones that are hyper carries. And like, Kai'sa is off to the side.
Not quite in either of those categories. The same with Senna and smolder. Like they.
[00:44:51] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:44:52] Speaker C: Those three scale very, very well, but they don't do percent health damage or, um, meaningful percent health damage. Smolder and, uh. Or a lot of aoe damage to a team. To an entire team.
[00:45:08] Speaker B: Yep.
Now, the other thing I'm gonna say is you do not need a hypercarry unless the enemy team has hyper frontline.
The point of a hyper carry is this is the person capable of cutting through the six item Ornn or the six item scion who's just otherwise an impenetrable wall to your mages and other champions.
[00:45:33] Speaker A: Mundo currently is very, very hard with the items changes you just got. He's like a big winner and he just stacks health.
[00:45:42] Speaker D: Yep.
[00:45:45] Speaker B: Okay, do we want to move on to question four?
[00:45:50] Speaker A: Yep, I think so.
[00:45:52] Speaker B: All right, that's enough talking about hyper carries. Now we're talking about something completely different. Question four is, do you think there's any viable tank build for Niko as either supporter mid to use her more for engage in CC?
[00:46:04] Speaker C: I don't think so.
[00:46:06] Speaker A: No.
[00:46:07] Speaker C: I can't even think of one that would be viable.
[00:46:10] Speaker A: No, I mean, there's a reason why she. She's kind of like this engaged tool. Like really like, that's what her innate ability is. That's why most nikos will go proto to get repositioned to make sure they actually hit the UlT. And then in addition, Zhonya is somewhere in the path so that they can survive after the fact because they can do a second rotation of spells. If you're building tank, you just kind of lose a lot. In my opinion.
[00:46:37] Speaker D: It's also ability. Haste is tanks have the least access to it and that's what you would want for this. Kind of like to play Niko this way is how can I be tanky and have my Cc up more often? And you kinda can't. Like, you're just never gonna have your stuff up as often as going an AP build or support build.
[00:47:01] Speaker B: The closest answer I can give for this is build a seraphs instead of your other lost chapter item. To give yourself a little bit of extra bulk off the shield poc.
[00:47:10] Speaker D: Yep.
[00:47:12] Speaker B: That's the closest you can really get.
[00:47:15] Speaker D: Yeah, I could see an argument for like, for like getting a late game, like warm ox, for like, if you have enough bonus health, you survive the engage. You can heal back up.
[00:47:29] Speaker B: But like, maybe most games, I would say no.
[00:47:32] Speaker D: Most games, no.
[00:47:34] Speaker B: All right, so thanks for all the questions. Erie. Write in
[email protected] so we can answer them on the show.
[00:47:43] Speaker D: Yeah, those were fun.
[00:47:45] Speaker B: All right, our next question is a real simple one from Alan, who writes. Hey, wards. I know the importance of pink wards, but I'm often, I'm not sure if I should buy a component or a pink ward when I don't have enough item slots for both. Could you give me some help?
[00:47:57] Speaker C: Component?
[00:47:59] Speaker D: Yeah, basically.
[00:48:00] Speaker C: Component all sources. The only exception I can think of is, like, if you're a supporter.
[00:48:04] Speaker B: All right, I'm gonna clarify on what component means because you should be buying a pink ward over, like a longsword or a ruby crystal.
[00:48:13] Speaker D: I agree.
[00:48:14] Speaker B: You should be buying the component. If it's like a noon quiver, a pickaxe, something that has a lot more power in the slot.
That's my opinion on it.
[00:48:24] Speaker A: I think you're right for most cases. I think that if you're at, it's all dependent on time of game, to be honest.
[00:48:33] Speaker B: So, for example, where you can't have enough slots for both. So we're at least at mid game.
[00:48:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, if we're like mid game or like late game, you're building your last item. I would argue that having a pink cord for the fourth, 3rd, or fourth dragon fight is more valuable than having the one longsword because you don't have that much gold. But if you're early game and you're walking back and you're debating on picking up the longsword or your pink ward, you should pick up the longsword every single time.
[00:49:06] Speaker C: I'm usually a steadfast proponent of buying pink wards, with the exception being if it's going to fill your last slot and you can't buy an item. And here's why.
In those late game scenarios where you'd rather have a pink ward instead of the item for the next dragon fight or whatever, you know where they're going to be.
Why do you need vision for this? If I have, it's the same, it's the same concept as in early game.
Why almost no one builds a tier to start with. Because I have a longsword, you have a tier. I win all fights. Now, if I have a Longsword and you have a pink ward, I will win fair fights. You have to be able to get an unfair fight off of that pink ward, and that's not going to happen with a big dragonfly.
[00:49:53] Speaker B: I have two counterarguments.
[00:49:55] Speaker C: The number ones are if you are split pushing. If you are specifically split pushing and not going to be at the fight. Yes, you can make an argument for having a pink ward, although you should really have already had the pink ward out. But.
[00:50:06] Speaker B: All right, so hear me out.
One, when we're at the point where everyone is three plus items, 150 bonus health or ten ad is not going to make or break the fight. Whereas, and this is the, the two pink wards for a mid to late game fight where you know the enemy air is going to be are not for gaining vision, they are for denying vision. This is to put it in the bush that you want to sit in while you prep so that you know the enemy doesn't know for sure exactly where you are in that bush. They may know you're in the bush, but they can't point and click you. That is the reason for pink wards and that is where they make the difference and can make or break a team fight more than 1080 or 150 bonus health would because you can make the enemy have to face check into you because they can't have the vision where you want to be.
[00:50:56] Speaker D: And like denial as like the carrie. I shouldn't have to be the one to put that pink ward. However, in practice, like more than half the time no one else does. So I'm like almost always wanting to sit on pink wards for that reason.
[00:51:15] Speaker B: Yes and yes, in theory, your support and or jungler should have swept that area.
[00:51:20] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:51:20] Speaker B: Do you trust that they actually will?
[00:51:23] Speaker C: Right?
[00:51:23] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:51:24] Speaker C: Which is why I was like, the caveat, the exception for me is if you're the support player, yes. This is your job. You should actually have a pink war.
Your contribution stat wise to a teamfight doesn't matter nearly as much as your contribution. Vision and CC wise and components don't help with that. Yeah, unless you.
[00:51:40] Speaker A: This is all obviously very, very like champ dependent and time dependent as well too. Like if I'm playing Sejuani jungle and we're going for third drake, I should probably have like a pink in my, in my slot because me having the extra health or whatever is not going to break, make or break the fight as we kind of discussed. And the vision denial will. But you know, if I'm playing, I don't know. I kind of think of an example like.
[00:52:10] Speaker C: Because of the way that stats scale on themselves after a fashion. Like so yes, it's just 1080, but you also have a lot of attack speed and crit at this point. So the ten ad is not just 1080.
Same thing for health. It's sure it's 150 health, but how much armor and magic resist do you have at this point? It's not just 150 health. So I think the component gives you the edge and it's enough to make it such that in the general case, over a long period of time, doing it over and over again, I choose the component over the vision for most cases. A couple of examples I have realized.
[00:52:46] Speaker B: What the one component that you won't even argue a little bit, you'll say pink ward every time. Okay, the glowing mote that gives five ability haste.
[00:52:57] Speaker C: That one is really minor. And it's like the only, the reason why the glowing moat doesn't win is because the only people that it matters for are the people that that are throwing, trying to throw Cc and not much else. And those people should be supports and building a big horde.
Even then, though, I think I have gone to a couple of fights with a glowing moat instead because I'm like playing nocturn and I have 250 gold, not enough to build the 354 longsword. And I'm like, I turn off all everybody's vision anyway. It doesn't really matter.
[00:53:31] Speaker B: That's fair.
[00:53:34] Speaker C: I'm trying to build the black cleaver from number eight.
The Mot's a component for that.
[00:53:39] Speaker B: Of course, there's an easier answer for this that we're all overlooking, which is if you go lucian top, you don't need no pink wards. You just barrel down top lane and murder everyone.
[00:53:50] Speaker D: True. True.
[00:53:52] Speaker C: Get em.
[00:53:53] Speaker B: All right, guys, this has been episode 433 of the Forwards podcast. I've been Jack Soman for crush, you for a free shooter for Witchit Black Mass. Have a great night.
[00:54:03] Speaker C: Bye bye.
[00:54:07] Speaker B: Thanks for listening to the Four Wards podcast. If you have ideas for what you would want to see from our Patreon or questions you want answered on the show, contact
[email protected].
